2012 presidential election

[Spookymufu]

I dont believe in redistribution of wealth and when the most wealthy are paying 36-45% in tax and paying most of this countries over all taxes (because most Americans dont pay taxes or pay very little) I dont think it's all that American to punish those that have the drive and ability to make money pay more for those that dont.

If your kid worked hard and was smarter then another kid and got a "A" in school and another kid that didnt work hard and wasnt very smart and got an "C" would you ask your kid to give up a grade so both kids could get a "B"?

No, so why punish people that have worked hard and earned a lot of money to do the same?

when teachers are making $80k a yr (including) benefits then I think they can pay a little more for them

[Pumpkin_Man]

Okay, let's put this pension issue into perspective, as I am actualy in the AFT, and have been fighting along side other union members to save my own pension. It just so happens that I PAID INTO that pension plan. I paid into it, EVERY PAY DAY since May of 1984. That's the reason why I AM ENTITLED TO IT. So did all the teachers, fire fighters, police officers and other public employees. a pension plan was part of their contract when they signed on. To cut their benifits is a serious breech of that contract, and you are taking away money that THEY (WE) EARNED.

I can understand why other cuts have to be made, and we may have to curb other "entitlements" like Obama Care, but don't take money away from pension plans that were supported by the employees. That IMHO would be stealing.

The major problem with the pension sustem, at least in the state of Illinois, (I don't presume to know about other states) is the dishonesty and out right theft of verious funds perpatraited by a corrupt state government. The corruption has reached all levels of our government, to the point that I'm actualy embarassed to talk about it on a public forum. Handled properly, SURS and SERS does NOT have to be a financial burden. It was the mishandling by our legislature that has lead to the posiblity of working people in the public sector having to accept a lower benifit then was PROMISED to them by the state when they hired on.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't have all, or for that matter, any of the answers, but it's a pretty safe bet that the vast majority of all of our state and federal money problems are the result of miss management and corruption, and not because retired public employees are getting to large a pension.

Mike

[Spookymufu]

Mike, we're talking about benefits such as medical and so on, not SSN (but that might be next) or a pension plan, although there are quite a few public employees that get a way too large, bloated pension package and/or retirement bonus.....No reason why they (you) cant pay more into your medical and other benefits, at least for for now.

[Pumpkin_Man]

Spooky, the state made me a PROMISE that for putting in a certain percentage of my gross pay, I would get a certain ammount in a monthly anuity when I retire. To have to pay more for the same benifit or less of a benifit is a breech of that leagal contract. As for some public employees raking in a "bloated" pension benifit, those are not your working class pensions for guys like me, or the average cop, teacher of fire fighter. It's for the various ADMINISTRATORS who abused the system, and if you want to know who really gets away with murder, it's our elected officials. They don't pay a dime into Social Secority or into Medicare, yet they rake in huge benifits that are adjusted with inflation every year IN ADDITION TO free medical insurance for life. So I guess what I'm saying is that the state budget shouldn't be ballanced entirely on my back, but on the backs of those who CREATED the problem in the first place. The suits in the legislature, NOT the teachers who educate our children, the police officers who keep our civilization from degenerating into total chaos, and our fire fighters who risk their lives on a dayly basis.

Mike

[Spookymufu]

I'm glad we agree then, mostly anyway

[Murfreesboro]

The lifetime perks enjoyed by members of Congress upset me, too.

I am apprehensive that, if we don't somehow get a handle on our debt, we aren't going to have money for anything at all, not entitlements, not promised benefits, nothing. Or perhaps we will have money, but it won't be worth anything.

[jadewik]

Don't get me started on social security... I pay thousands and thousands into that each year-- that's money I'll never ever see. (My Social Security statement figuratively says "Hahaha. Kiss that money goodbye, sucker!") I'd give it all up to end the program.

... the next time I hear the words "I'm on a fixed income" come from someone on social security, I'm going to give them a tongue lashing they won't soon forget. I don't work, I don't get paid... and they're stealing from my livelihood and COMPLAINING about what I am unwillingly forced to contribute so they can get paid a fixed amount every month for doing nothing? Eesh. Whatever happened to families taking care of each other? What about planning for the future? Shoot, I'd give up my social security (that I'm not getting anyway) if they'd just get rid of the danged program so my future hellspawn... err offspring... didn't have to pay into that broken system.

End "short" rant.

[Pumpkin_Man]

The thing is, Jade, is that social security is supposed to be a retirement plan, but it was miss handled from the get go. It's handled more like a wealfare program than a retirement package. Additionaly, many people who have not contributed one cent to it (i.e. ex convicts, illegal aliens and the likd) are eligable for bennifits under the present law, while working people now have to wait until they're 72 years old to collect a very meager monthly bennifit. I totaly agree, that the system is completely and utterly broken, and I'm glad that I'm exempt from it because I pay into SURS (State University Retirement System.) My point is that the state set up SURS as a PENSION PLAN. In order to be eligable you have to have worked at a college or a university, and you haft to have paid into it for a minimum of 10 years to be vested. Now as the risk of shooting myself in the foot, I personaly think that should be 15 years, because a lot of carreer enders will work at a college as a "community professor" for the bare minimum time, pull the pin and get full bennifits. But then again, that's GUARENTEED by a LEAGAL CONTRACT. It's NOT a welfair program, it's NOT a hand out, it's NOT a give-away program. It's EARNED MONEY, DEDUCTED RIGHT FROM THE PAY CHECK of the person in the plan, and....well I hate to say it, because the work is very unpopular in today's ecconomic rhetoric, but we are ENTITLED to that money. Nobody gave it to us. WE EARNED IT. And that's why I get so livid when I hear these miss guided attaks on the working people who are getting nothing whem compared to the bennifits given to the suit & tie guys in that same system. BUT, then again, even those 'suit & tie" guys PAID in their HARD EARNED ( or in the case of some administrators hardly earned.....narf narf) money, and are ENTITLED to get it back in accordance with the LEAGAL CONTRACT that the state of Illinois made with them when they (we) hired on.

We are NOT LEACHES. We only want what was promised to us on hire date when we signed that contract. I gave my local community college 27 (and counting) years of my life. I paid every pay day, into that pension plan, and it's ILLEGAL and blatend THEFT for the state to 'dilly dally' around the issue and use the money shortage that THEY CREATED as an excuse to screw us out of what is our JUST DUE under state and federal law.

Mike

[jadewik]

Mike, Social Security is NOT, nor was it ever intended to be, a "retirement plan". The fact that people treat it as one is why it's failing in the first place. The purpose of the program was to assist people who lost everything following the Great Depression. The program was intended to be TEMPORARY.

I also disagree with the whole "entitlement" spiel. Mainly because I'm entitled to keep the money that I worked so hard for, but have to give away. The tricky part is that when you take money away from those who have earned it and give it to someone else, the people you take that money from feel entitled to some sort of compensation later. I have as much entitlement to that money as you, but guess what? The government is already telling me that I can't have any of the tens of thousands I've already paid into the system.

Also, I NEVER said those receiving social security benefits were leeches. If you paid into a system with the expectation that you were owed money in return when you needed it most, then it should be paid back. The conflict arises when that program can no longer pay back those who have already forcibly paid into the system. I think that's the main reason why some people have had the idea to personalize the system-- then it DOES become more of a retirement plan for your personal use and you get out of it what you put into it. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Rather, the program serves as a perpetual crutch to people who didn't plan for the future-- whereas I have no retirement plan unless I make one myself.

I hate paying into a system where people treat my hard-earned money so cavalierly-- those who paid into the system and are now receiving those benefits are failing to realize that future generations are paying into a pot we can expect nothing from just to help pay back those who've already paid into the system. That "fixed income" is a decrease in my "unfixed" income and it doesn't come without a price on my end. I want to end the program so future generations don't have to pay the price for the ones before.

[Spookymufu]

not really related to the topic but it seemed to fit well here

anyone else see the parallels of these two "people"?

[Midnite Shadow]

Giggity

[Pumpkin_Man]

I totaly agree with everything you say about Social Security and all other government sponsored "entitlement" programs. They are abused and they are a drain on our ecconomy, and grossly unfair to the tax payer, BUT the pension program that I am in, SURS is NOT, repeat, NOT a government sponsored "entitlement" program, not is is tupported by the tax payer. It's supported by State University employees, and only those who are in the system receive bennifits from it. It's the same deal with SERS (State Employee Retirement System) That system, also requires that you be a state employee and pay into it, and only those who have worked for the state LONG ENOUGH TO BE VESTED are given any bennifits. What I don't agree with, and even get a little agrivated with, are those who don't know what they are talking about, claiming that it's a drain on the tax payer, and we all get too big a benifit at their expense. POPPY COCK!!!! If I'm LUCKY, and the system is still there by the time I retire, (if I can ever afford to reetire,) my benifit will be 80% of my highest 2 years average salary. In a nut shell, that means that I will be taking a 20% or there abouts CUT IN PAY when I retire from my job as a School Photographer. That's what I agreed to, and that' what the State of Illinois agreed to give me. Some of those Tea Party (and I personaly have nothing against them as a whole, and even agree with a lot of their views) want to reduce that pension to 50% or less, require me to pay a higher percentage into it, and have no medical insurance in my old age, which is exactly when I will be neading it the most. That's ILLEGAL, is a breach of their contract, and it's stealing, pure and simple.

I'm not saying that the tax payer should be taking care of me in my old age, but I DID PLAN FOR THE FUTURE, and it's not right that because I work in the public sector that I am being penalised for a financial crises that was created by a corrupt state government. I don't think it's right that general public opinion is that I should get nothing at all for all the money I paid into for my old age benifits. They want to take MY MONEY away from me under the guise of being "fiscally responsible," and I resent it.

Mike